It’s the “Peer Review” system, not “Peer Abuse” system

Well, I can’t believe I am writing this.

Apparently, even during the testing period, we’ve had reports of Developers retaliating against reviewers because of their reviews.

This is unacceptable.

It you disagree with the reviewer, you can respond in a civil manner. You can’t abuse them. You especially can’t stalk them in world and abuse them.

At the end of the day, if everyone else disagrees with the reviewer, your submission will be approved, and the system will notice their review was judged “not the same as the majority”. If everyone agrees and your submission is not approved, then you have some work to do.

The Peer review system will be an integral part of the There Community, especially an independent There Community. Using it to abuse other members, abusing other members because you don’t like their reviews, or abusing other members with bogus reviews or rejections will not be tolerated.

The penalty for a first offense is a 7-day moderation. And, since we all know a grown-up wouldn’t do this, we’ll require that you provide proof of age before your ban is lifted.

The penalty for a second offense is a Lifetime Ban, and all of your T$ and goods will be forefit.

Thank you and we now return to our regular programming.

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  1. #1 by Deb Sassybeme on 2012.10.26 - 4:15 pm

    Is praise a bother? I do appreciate while reviewing a separate browser pop up. So handy for reviewing clothing. When I had to only click the back button I sometimes would get mixed up on whether or not I did a review on top or bottom. This helps.

  2. #2 by Xcal Urradio on 2012.10.23 - 6:52 am

    Let me ask a Question,,,If not broke why change it? Sure there.com as a company is now passing the job off to the develipeors as Peer Review (this is a good thing) ….but unlike the THERE.com Staff theses Peoples names are going public and very easy to find….Not just in THERE.com but on twitter facebook and any other media outlet you can think of.
    No one needs to know who voted a Submission.
    I agree with (Ldymouse) I think the best solition for this is each desihner gets a number ….Xcal you are number 23 ..No one knows that I am 23 but Myself and THERE.COM staff. This keeps the integrity of the Peer Review system and offers peace of mind.
    Mr Wilson I have 7 years of running a Radio station with volunteers it is not a easy thing to do ………….I do wish you the best of luck my friend.

  3. #3 by ldymouse on 2012.10.22 - 4:31 pm

    Wow, What can I say.. This whole process, Seems well a bit childish and unprofessional. Who are we kidding really? Adults act like Adults online? Does that Really happen? Its like voting. Who would run to the Polls if they knew everyone would know who they were voting for , especially if their candidate was unpopular to most. My point is.. People knowing who has rejected their submissions is not such a good thing.. Obviously its already causing issues… As this post clearly states. And if we are discussing acting like adults, well adults should stand behind their words, I completely agree but adults should also be assumed trust especially if they are in the developer program… If you have designers that are spitefully rejecting submissions that’s the real issue. The issue isn’t going to resolve by putting johnys name on the rejection. It obviously only causes animosity among the developers.. Which is actually creating another completely different problem. again as is clearly happening now. You expect that “ADULTS” should handle these types of situations as adults. However many people take things of this nature personally. I am certainly not comfortable, if i reject a submission for very valid reasons , then having the developer come and message me about my rejection. Hopefully , in the review process I will be able to explain why and will not receive such messages. But this i doubt will happen even with an explanation. I say unprofessional because most all companies when they have product review they don’t put the reviewers name and information on the review . Its usually just a number. Have you ever seen a product that says reviewed by #35 per-say? There is a reason for that! I don’t think the review process is a bad idea , i think its great. But I really think that it certainly needs more than.. MW posting rants and putting in policy’s that if you break yada yada yada.. Make the process so that it works for you not against you. I have no great ideas for this but i know other gaming sites that seem to it with great success perhaps find out what their process is… I am really excited for this developer program to get up and running and be successful , I want nothing more than to start designing again. But right now its terrifying, I need more drama in my life like I need a hole in the head.. I really do have a life with family and work.. And I want there.com to be something i enjoy.. It doesn’t seem at this point like designing for there.com is heaps of fun..

  4. #4 by AgapeLove on 2012.10.19 - 5:41 am

    All this fuss over designing things for sale! I think that we have to be working at the same time on getting more people to join There as well as keep those that we have! What good is it to have things for sale if there are not enough people to buy? As it is many are struggling just to pay rent; and hoods are closing every day! I’m forced to sell a lot of what i bought in the old There so that I can have some tbucs to meet my rent.I don’t see myself being able to buy anything new when i’m selling everything to get by!

    And I think that we really need to thank those who make quests and even offer prizes as I know of some that get on just to do the quests! It is one of the things that makes There fun! I don’t know much about designing, as I never did it, but I hate to see the discord involved ,as if it makes even one person unhappy enough to leave There, that is a loss to everyone!

  5. #5 by Deb Sassybeme on 2012.10.17 - 5:52 am

    Testing. Use to equal if you notice errors you report so it will be fixed/corrected in some way. Not being accused of adding more work for staff. Any errors I would think be added to the work flow in setting up what is being tested. Otherwise when are errors to be corrected? OR are they forever to be ignored? I would think at this time staff has enough tech issues to deal with before lame not as important issues. Sorry, but I’m not into using this review system to be the boss of others. Which is the direction of lot of this is already going. I think I would find it harder to find maturity among adult members rather then errors in the program. As much as few members want to use this review process to bother others the less I want any part of it at all.

    If I have cause more work? By what really? Getting sound in my zone as a option? Okay I’ll take that hit. That bit of add is huge equaled only by extra fog want. Even though I don’t log in daily. I love being able to log in and hear birds. That makes me happy in my little corner of my virtual world experience.

    So since I am accused of being such an abnormal pain to staff. And since the service is asking for money from people for membership and have for some time now. See if this is familiar. I’m sure it also would be considered as non important.

    (6) We take extra steps to protect the safety and privacy of children.

    Young people need special safeguards and privacy protection. We urge all parents to teach their children about protecting their personally identifiable information while online. Our Site and services are not intended for children under the age of 13. We do not knowingly collect personally identifiable information from children under the age of 13 and we do not target our services or this Site to children under 13. Teens age 13 to 18 should obtain permission from their parents before providing any personally identifiable information or registering for an account.

    Now I’m done ever bothering.

  6. #6 by Orielle Thereian on 2012.10.14 - 9:55 am

    I’m getting a lil tired of the “spite review” accusations. I have rejected items for not meeting fig leaf requirements and have yet to receive any “spite reviews.” When someone makes an item that could be questionable they shouldn’t be surprised if it gets a few rejections. And if one of those people who rejected their questionable item happens to be one who had items rejected before they should not assume that it was done out of spite.

    We all are suppose to be adults here. If someone can’t put aside their personal feelings towards a developer when reviewing their items then perhaps they should skip over reviewing that person’s items.

    Hopefully before punishments are handed out There checks to see if any alleged “spite reviews” are indeed groundless rejections. I can see moderating someone for harassing a reviewer for rejecting their item, but to moderate them for rejecting an item that falls in the grey area….

    • #7 by Truck on 2012.10.15 - 5:57 pm

      Orielle i had 1 person that aproved my product then turned around 5 mins later and side there was a problem, i kindly imed said person to see where the problem was becuse i didnt see it and got the cold push off from another desinger. that i consider a spite review. hate to see something i want personly fer my self and get rejected due to others dont like it, even if it falls into the dev tos..

  7. #8 by Stephanie Marie Soto on 2012.10.13 - 2:40 pm

    “If you’re not willing to stand behind your words, then perhaps they’re best left unsaid.” Well said.

  8. #9 by PhillStok on 2012.10.12 - 11:18 pm

    I think you’re ruining the game with these harsh punishments, As if not enough people got banned and left there to the point the world is really low populated.
    people get griefed by someone? theres an ignore feature for a reason.
    people are not going to like other people rejecting their items, sometimes unrightfully, and then drama can start, it happens on all games and theres ignore feature for that, if all people on other games got banned for that they would of been empty by now (like there is)
    by you giving such harsh punishments it will make the community even lower than it is.

    • #10 by Matthew on 2012.10.13 - 2:40 pm

      Sorry dude but the ignore feature wouldn’t stop someone from abusing the review system. The harsh punishments don’t ruin the game at all. I think it is the other way around. People often quit games when there’s too much chaos with no punishment at all. Maybe if they just simply acted their age instead of shoe size, there wouldn’t be a problem. Go troll someone’s facebook profile or 4chan instead. Not that hard.

  9. #11 by Riot_Girl_1 on 2012.10.12 - 2:51 pm

    As someone that has recieved ‘spite reviews’ on one of my items from another angry developer, I’m glad to see there with be a crack down on this in the future. Hopefully such harsh punishment will make people think twice before doing this sort of thing again.

  10. #12 by Daniuru on 2012.10.12 - 12:51 pm

    Somehow I knew this was not going to work.

  11. #15 by Matthew on 2012.10.12 - 12:04 pm

    This is why I feel it would be best to have a small group of volunteer judges brought up and trained for reviewing submissions. We all know that age doesn’t matter in these times and even some adults are more immature than children. The small group of judges would have to be active members and would review submissions provided in order of submission time rather than at random before they can review the next. There should be a minimum quantity of reviews required by each group member every week. This not only guarantees that all submissions get reviewed, but also would combat the popularity contest feeling of the system. In my opinion, the group should avoid picking designers to become group members just to avoid putting them at risk of their review being rejected because they rejected another designer in the group.

  12. #16 by Garth on 2012.10.12 - 10:50 am

    Seems like the digital version of village stocks could be a Developer Naughty Corner page. 🙂

  13. #17 by Deb Sassybeme on 2012.10.12 - 10:11 am

    One thing I’ve wondered. Have the developer guide lines been updated? I know I marked one against developer guide lines as it would have and has been rejected before There closed. I think it is a fine line we cross when judging whether or not some thing is objectionable.
    One can only review the best they can. In some way since approval is manual atm I would think if I chose wrong then I loose points. So be it. I can only go with what I am supplied to judge with. No different then not having fig leaf apart of the submission process in stylemaker. I can only do so much with the naked eye. Until that is in place I don’t feel right judging on whether or not some thing should pass. Should I be expected to dds swap to do a review? Honestly since I don’t do clothing often enough I don’t feel comfortable choosing who’s boobs are who’s. Kind of why I hope more get involved in the review process to protect their own interest. A clearly defined guideline to what is copyright might help some as well. I’ll bet most of the membership is not an expert on copyright.
    I know Samysn is working hard to get things in order. And a LOT are still learning the process. Including myself. I do however agree people DO need to behave like adults with the review system. IF you disagree with any review, YOU can appeal. We may not get every thing we want in world. But we can get a lot in world.

    • #18 by Michael Wilson on 2012.10.12 - 10:15 am

      “A clearly defined guideline to what is copyright”.

      What defines “Copyright” is not defined by There, it’s defined by Copyright Law, which you can Google.

      Since There enforces copyright to protect the original authors and to protect itself from legal action, it’s something we will always enforce.

      • #19 by Deb Sassybeme on 2012.10.12 - 10:22 am

        I understand THERE does not define copyright. I guess what I mean by that is, say an cup is for sell some where. Same cup is for sale in 10 other places. Does right to sell mean copyright? Can 10 people still hold the same copyright to the same cup that did not create the cup? I guess by define I mean explain by example maybe? As a guide to help more.

      • #20 by Michael Wilson on 2012.10.12 - 10:30 am

        I don’t understand the question.

        If you’re saying “Well, the cup is for sale in Second Life, so it’s OK for it to be for sale in There”, no. Just because the copyright is violated somewhere else doesn’t mean it’s OK to violate it in There.

        It’s possible for a copyright holder to license work to many other people, but unless you actually can prove you hold that license, you can’t copy the work.

      • #21 by Deb Sassybeme on 2012.10.12 - 10:59 am

        I’m really not trying to be confusing.
        Thank you. I think we’re getting there. Goes along with my example that not everyone might understand license to sell verses what is copyrighted. And how to find, judge, who holds copyright. Or if there is even a copyright at all. Or universal free to use or sell.
        I think since most of us are humans. 🙂 We do tend to make mistakes.
        So maybe at some point after tech issues are addressed in the program. Could developer guidelines be defined to reflect 18+ as much as your willing to have it? Plus help understanding copyright? To Help with the reviewing process?

      • #22 by Deb Sassybeme on 2012.10.12 - 11:32 am

        Well Greenie, that is something I would question. Istockphoto might be able to sell the same thing as 10 other people. Does that give them copyright over the same image? Being able to, or just selling something online don’t mean they have rights to it. That has been proven in different court cases.

        Now as far as your tut. I don’t think I should have to pull a dds to view in stylemaker. ARE you saying that now stylemaker has fig leaf approval check before submission? Cause it didn’t last week when I checked. I have not seen an update any where that it has been. I would love to update my program.
        added.

      • #23 by Greenie on 2012.10.13 - 3:30 pm

        Sassybeme,
        If you looked through the whole tutorial you would see exactly where, and how, Fig Leaf IS integrated into the currently available Stylemaker. You would see exactly what Stylemaker version I was using and when it was compiled. Ver 5.3 compiled Thu Sept. 13, 2012.
        It is the currently available Stylemaker download found in the Developer downloads at There.com. You would also see that you do not need to “pull” any files to review Stylemaker products. The item/s can be loaded without removing or moving, copying or accessing any files outside of the THERE client folders and programs. They remain right where you found them, unchanged.

        No one showed me how to use Stylemaker. I checked out all of the features for myself and found what features are available, where they are within the program and how to use them.

        Are you forced to check Fig Leaf prior to submission?
        No.
        However, when you begin the submission procedure, your first step is a ‘Welcome to the Product Submission Wizard’.
        From there, to continue, click ‘Next’.

        Configuration page opens which gives the Item choices. For these purposes I am using the female ‘Top’ option.
        This shows you the options that you have selected for this submission. Collar style, Arms style, Chest style, Abdomen style, Hands style.
        On this step you can choose ‘Back, Next or Cancel’.
        For these purposes, let us choose ‘Next’.

        At this point in the submission process, ‘Next’ opens the FIG LEAF process in the ‘Custom Texture’ step. This shows your submission texture overlaid by the FIG LEAF guidelines for that style choice.

        Your submission process cannot go forward without completing this process. Your choices from this step are ‘Back’, ‘Next’ and ‘Cancel’.

        Are you asked if your item is suitable for submission under the current TOS and Developer Agreements?
        Yes.

        Are we forced to read TOS?
        No.

        Are we forced to read the Developer Agreement?
        No.

        Are we asked IF we agree to the terms of both?
        YES.

        In fact, during the submission process we are required to confirm, “I have verified that this submission conforms to the There Product Submission guidelines and does not contain copyrighted or indecent material.”

        If a developer has not created every part of their submission it is up to the submitting developer to make sure that they get permission to use what they did not create. They are required to make sure that they DO have the right to submit to this venue, where the submitted files will be redistributed and thus left unprotected.

        The currently available Stylemaker version that I am using has a ‘Help’ button which opens to selections of:
        Developer Central
        Developer Agreement
        Submission Guidelines
        Texture Protection
        Specification and Pricing

        These are also available via the Developer links in There Central.

        The Submission Guidelines includes links to check on trademarks, copyrights, etc. It defines copyright infringement in simple terms. It even explains that other people using copyrighted material without permission does not mean that it is okay for developers to use it within THERE.com.

        It gives an overview and some definitions on what is not allowed, deemed inappropriate or offensive or copyrighted.
        Minimum coverage: *It Even Explains That FigLeaf Is Included In The Current Stylemaker Tool Available For Download*

        The THERE Member Agreement has a section on Copyrights. ***We must have the legal right to the content that we upload to the client.***

        The Developer agreement defines submissions further. We must affirm that we are the designer, creator and owner of the assets that we submit. That our submissions do not infringe in any way on anyone else’s intellectual property rights. That our submissions are fully compliant with the terms put forward in the Member Agreement. That our submissions do not infringe on rights of privacy or publicity or any other rights of any third party.

        We must agree to these before we become THERE.com Developers.
        We must agree to these before we take the final step in submissions.

        The Behavior Guidelines define that infringement of copyright, trademark and intellectual property rights of others is not allowed.

        These agreements and definitions are not sprung on any of us unexpectedly and are available to each and every one of us.

        All submissions must be confirmed as complying with these agreements and policies.

        If we didn’t make it, we must be able to show that we have permission to submit to this venue. This venue in particular, because it does redistribute assets within each members files and folders.

        The example of istockphoto demonstrates that even if you do purchase a standard use license to an image, you do not have permission to use the image in a submission in a venue such as THERE.com which redistributes assets. You need express permission in such a venue as THERE.com.

        It is simple. If you didn’t make it, you need to have permission to use it. In particular, permission to use in this venue.

    • #24 by Greenie on 2012.10.12 - 11:10 am

      Hi Sassybeme,
      I posted a tutorial at http://thumdar.com for testing new avatar products in Stylemaker/FigLeaf. You don’t need to swap anything out. All you need to do is get the review copy of the avatar clothing and try it on your avatar, or have a friend try it on near your avatar. That puts the file into your folders. The review pages hold the submission ID number which identifies the .dds file that you need to load into Stylemaker. No guess work required. No opinion. Straight and to the point, FigLeaf guidelines. FigLeaf is part of Stylemaker now so you don’t need to load separate programs.

      Copyright is clear cut really. Did YOU make it? If not, do you have direct permission from the person/s that created what you want to use, in whole or in part?

      If no to the two above questions, don’t use it. You have no right to it.

      Altering the image or the model does NOT make it yours to use. Using part of it does not make it yours. Tracing over the design does not make it yours to use.

      Even royalty free items have guidelines, such as, free AND purchased downloads from TurboSquid and Daz3D are under the blanket rules of not being allowed in any format that redistributes the files, thus leaving them unprotected. The only exceptions are permissions from the original creators.

      Since THERE.com loads the textures and models into our systems, (redistributes) , TurboSquid and Daz3d downloads are not allowed without that express permission.

      If you purchase an image from someplace like, istockphoto, that image falls under license. Using the images under the standard license is forbidden in venues such as THERE.com, where the assets are, redistributed, and thus, left unprotected.

      Thumdar is hosting a set of templates that I made for both male and female avatar items for use in creating Stylemaker items for THERE.com . There are tutorials in the Library and threads full of helpful tips and instructions. Quite a few skilled developers are willing to mentor, tutor and help other members learn to create their own THERE.com submissions. Youtube is full of tutorials for just about any paint or modeling program available.

      With the templates and help readily at hand and those basic guidelines on copyright, even beginners can learn to develop their own 3D art without pushing the rules on copyrights.

      Two basic rules:
      Did you make it?
      Did you get express permission to use it in ‘this’ particular venue?

      I hope that clears it up, even a little.

      • #25 by Deb Sassybeme on 2012.10.14 - 8:16 am

        Greenie, this will not be as long winded. When I decided to test the tools. I installed what was on the site. The stylemaker I downloaded did not offer fig leaf in the submission process. Which I emailed feedback about it around the beginning of the month. As well as construction builder templates link was broken. I simply asked if it has since then been updated. I don’t recall asking for a long winded insult. A simple yes or no would have done.

      • #26 by Greenie on 2012.10.15 - 7:48 am

        I didn’t take the time or put forward the effort to point out the information in theTOS, Developer and Behavior Guidelines agreements, relevant to reviewing and sumbitting , to insult anyone.

        There have been considerable posts and questions about these issues here and other places as well as within the 3D client. Some developers have expressed confusion and an inability to read through and understand the agreements, how to check for clothing violations and where in the process, what is.

        It is unfortunate that you took insult from information intended to be helpful and instructional.

  14. #27 by SSBPD on 2012.10.12 - 9:44 am

    GREAT idea. Thanks MW!

  15. #28 by Jonathan on 2012.10.12 - 9:16 am

    Just a thought. Why cant reviews be annonymous? Atleast from a users standpoint.

    • #29 by Michael Wilson on 2012.10.12 - 9:21 am

      That was debated at length and we came down on the side of non-anonymous reviews.

      Frankly, in a “Grown Up” world, it makes sense. If you’re not willing to stand behind your words, then perhaps they’re best left unsaid.

    • #30 by soede on 2012.10.12 - 9:36 am

      Anonymous submissions would make it far more possible for texture theft to slip by unnoticed. It would not be immediately apparent that the wrinkle textures from designer A were in fact being submitted by designer B, C or D.
      Anonymous reviews would give people the shield of anonymity to flame and insult behind. With the names of reviewers kept public people are aware that their reputation is at stake based on their submissions and reviews, and I would think that would make MOST but clearly not ALL behave in a more socially acceptable manner.

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